So I replaced the two FullHD display with one 4K. The projector was not in use at all.
So my basic setup is now:
Sony KD55XE9005
ATV 4K (connected directly to TV HDMI2 port)
Denon AVR 3811 (connected to ARC TV HDMI3 port)
PC (plexserver and gaming) (connected to TV HDMI1 port)
Satellite Receiver (connected to AVR, but barely used, mostly headless)
So the new display I must say is giving me a lot of fun. The home-cinema feeling has gone a bit ... but not only because of the 4K the display performance is better and brighter. HDR is a huge point here. To get a bit of cinema atmosphere I can get closer to the TV :-)
One downside on the TV is the operating system. It doesn't cause me to much trouble as the OS as such, since I don't use it. 99% of the time the ATV is just connected to HDMI2 and all good. Since I cut the cord on power every night the downside is actually the booting time, but this is also manageable. It is more like the projector which needed time as well before displaying content ...
One more thing:
I always had Logitech or similar programmable remote control. That is history now too.
Due to CEC in may case everything is controlled via the ATV remote and it works excellent. Even when powering up everything that is very smooth (during power up of the TV it switches not the display on, when finished with the power up, for a very short time the receiver powers up and down and that is it.
From this state I just press Menu on the ATV remote and every thing starts and switches to correct inputs.
On the other hand if I send the ATV to sleep everything powers down. Perfect!
Apps currently installed:
Plex (will go ...)
Infuse (will Plex soon)
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Sky Ticket (well ...)
VUPlayer (receiving TV content from the SAT-box)
WakeOnLan (to wakeup a NAS or PC)
Some other (MLB App, Youtube) but nothing I use often.
So again, very satisfied with the setup.
No just waiting for the plexification ... I registered for beta.
Still I am very happy with the combo AppleTV 4K and Infuse, btw.
https://firecore.com/infuse
Meanwhile also the Amazon Prime Video App arrived in the store. So one more check mark on that. Some people had complains on not having digital 5.1 sound in the first place, but mean while this is also disappearing with update audio on the videos.
HOT NEWS:
Infuse is going Plex!
Means Infuse will utilize it's excellent playback qualities and combine with the central library approach from Plex. So make the best of both. The Beta is announced for end of February.
That basically is the same technique as the dune plugin did back in the past. It also just connceted the library for displaying movie information, images to the movie and so on. Playing was done via normal file share (NFS or SMB) without transcoding and at maxim quality at the correct framerate.
So very good decision from the Infuse team at firecore! And the Plex plexapp is still a mess. I gave up on it on the Apple TV, even the beta does not make any sense for me, as it still does not change framerate in my case. If I understood correct it should, but it doesn't work.
Apple TV 4K is no back from beta on official update 11.2.5.
Finally I have a state of the art streaming box which is capable of automatic frame switching ...
plus has ability to play local content, even without transcoding
plus has ability to play 4k
plus supports Bluetooth headsets
plus has full app support
plus has a sleek design
plus can passthrough the audio signal
The first app which enables that all is ... tata ... Firecores Infuse App. With the release 5.6.2 is uses the potential of tvOS11.2 (still beta) to display any video at the native frame rate ... Hooray.
I waited for this since 2010 ... long way home ... so bye bye Dune ... good old friend.
One thing is missing to most complete streaming box ever and that is the Amazon Prime App, but I am pretty much confident that this will be available soon.
Sony 42 Zoll W805, European model
Epson TW 4400 projecting on a 90" (200cm by 112cm) screen
(all in our living room)
Player:
Dune Prime HD (2009 model), Meanwhile supported by DPC Plex plugin
VU Solo 4k (prepared for 4k) Satellite receiver with hard disk, enables to stream to Ipad (the concept is working since the first iPad generation
Apple TV 4k
Server:
i7 7500T (35W) Skylake CPU with hardware transcoding accelerator (Quick Sync Video)
10TB storage in a Raid 1 config
Plexserver
Mobile Devices:
Ipad Air 16GB
Ipad Pro (2015) 128GB
Plex App on all devices (including the satellite receiver, not counting the Plex App in the TV).
Apps on the Apple devices:
Plex
Infuse
Netflix
VU Player (in theory the satellite receiver supports up to 8 clients simultaneously each with different channel tuned, dish has to be updated with a LNB which support FBC).
A lot of hardware came to the market which, I tested none of them ... lack of time. Interesting might be Sony PS4 Pro and Xbox One X as they support UHD 4k and as well the whole streaming apps. On top the Xbox one X no gives the customer a UHD Bluray player in their hands. Still both boxes have active cooling with a fan, which might be an issue for some people including me.
Dune also brought some new 4k models to the market, but unfortunately the DPC plugin is not yet available, even there is someone in the Plex forum working on it. But no progress lately.
I gave up on the Raspi solution. Why:
a) it does not support without any pain (or not at all) Netflix and Amazon Prime
b) it does hardly support (might be not true, but painful) Bluetooth for headsets.
I bypassed b) with a Bluetooth aux in device. That I used also to attach it to the Dune player (as it was still the best quality player for Plex). Connecting to such Bluetooth receiver devices is sometimes not straight forward. But BT is generally sometimes nasty. Apple kind of reacted on this with the W1 chip,which I never had an experience with, restricted to EarPods and Beats headsets I think.
Connecting a BT headset to the FireTV: That is the worst experience ever, you have always to go via a new pair cycle, at least for my headset (Sennheiser Momentum2). That is so bad ... so I gave up on the FireTV ... even I had installed Kodi and with the Kodi-connect plugin with official Plex "support" (as one can talk of that currently ... another story)
So whery is the light?
Apple TV4K!!!!
So what happened: Already with announcement of the new iPad Pro models there rises some hope at my site, that things will become better at Apple playing video well. Why: The brought in this new display technology which they call "ProMotion technology". This is supported with (at that time new) A10X SoC the first time. They already gave the information, that for the first time cinema movies will be played back on the iPad with 24 frames ... Hooray!
So my takeaway was: Hopefully this will be transferred to the ATV4K ultimately.
And the ATV4K came out ... and yeah it has it, since it has the same processor A10X. So I ran in the Apple store and checked the video settings. So it has 24p settings, but unfortunately only 4k HDR and SDR at 24p, not 1080p. So that disappointed me a bit ... but this was for tvOS 11.0.
So meanwhile the tvOS 11.2 beta is out and --- tata ---- it has some very important enhancements:
Dynamic Framerate Switching
Dynamic HDR Switching
And it supports 1080p at 24p as well!
So hoping for that I bought the Apple TV 4K even before that announcement (having some free time during serious back issue period). And yes I can confirm that 24p playback is possible for all material, if you switch manually to 24p. So Apple TV can play 24p material without any issues (at least what I can prove with my 1080p SDR setup).
And in the beta the automatic switching is already working for Netflix and itunes Movies.
Apps like Plex and Infuse, which do not use the standard player (at least that is the assumption) have to do some work, but be patient - once the 11.2 is officially out there will be updates available. At least Infuse already announced.
As to Apps:
1) Plex: Plex lately struggles a bit with support. So many user are complaining here and there. Some are active Plex subscribers (as I am), and they don't get support at all. So paying 5$ per month is not a lot, but summarizing that over years it is a lot. So I am considering to stop my subscription. Actually there is only one feature I will miss with not being an active subscriber: Streaming from one iPad to another one for mobile use (in my case important, since only one iPad has 128GB storage).
2) For that Reason: Is started with Infuse: I like it very much, it does not transcode, has it own video player. And once it has implemented the automatic switching before Plex I will go all in. Means end the plex subscription.
Transcoding: I accept transcoding (I even updated my server for that reason). But I don't think a device like ATV4K attached physically to the LAN should not need transcoding, bandwidth and everything is available. So why? Actually I see some trend to go in that direction, but that is far away from being productive.
Ironically I have (from older times) some problematic video streams (interlace transport streams) which don't playback the video but only the audio. Reason: It tries to direct play it. It fails. So the workaround is enable transcoding manually. Not a good experience for the user. So I a complaint about this - as many other users - but simply no reaction. So sad ... even doing to beta testing does not address this problems.
Finally: I wait for the Amazon Prime App on ATV. Here my hope is it appears simultaneously with the tvOS11.2 and plays smoothly everything with the frame-rate switching.
I will update!
PS: Because of Westworld I bought the Sky streaming box, which is the ROKU box in fact. That box is the crappiest ever I had in my hands, it is not worth to write anything about it (most likely this box is a ROKU 3 box, so older device).
Friday, October 30, 2015
Updates Q4 2015
There are some news ...
1) I never gave a try to the ROKU box ... since this is not straight forward here in Germany. Ordering, powering ... everything is nasty. But of cause there would be ways and solutions to make it. Funnily the Pay TV service SKY just also offered some streaming based setup box (traditionally the come to your TV via satellite or cable) and guess what: They use the ROKU hardware. From what I have heard they made it a bad experience. SKY has a talent for this. Pay TV is a mess here ... but I guess it is as well on the planet ...
2) The New Apple TV is out ... Tata ... remember my wishes?
open it up a little bit, so that e.g. third party like KODI can be installed on
OK that was a joke ... :-)
support 24p
NOPE
support automatic frame rate switching between 24p/50p/60p
NOPE
perfect Plex App
I don't have it, so I cannot say anything ... but I think it changed not too much regarding to my basic rant, trans-coding will still be needed to get the movie played on the apple TV
3) I bought a Raspberry Pi 2 Model B 1GB
Why did this happen since I mentioned earlier not to go this direction. Mainly this is due to this product:
The RemotePi board at least solves one problem I had with it in the past. I does help to power on and off by using a remote and that was exactly what I wanted.
The OS image I have chosen was the rasplex image (www.rasplex.com). My first tests with it are quite promising. The auto-framerate switching is working as expected. Plex and Rasplex unfortunately to not support ISO playback. That is one short-come ... and still didn't make its way to my home. So is still in the testing phase.
4) The updated FireTV2 is also free to the marked ... but 4k is not of interested for me (currently). And the mess remains ... even with the FireOS 5 there is no progress with the frame rates. Unofficially there are some hidden ways to activate 24p ... but I dare to say that is also failing. I did install the beta-FireOS5 to my FireTV box. It wasn't a leap to the better. Sorry amazon. I think the box will not stay in my equipment.
Friday, May 1, 2015
Introduction
This long introduction might be interesting to understand my personal rant on this ... click on button if you really want to read this ...
My name is Frank, I am 46 years old and I am from Germany living in the beautiful
city of Munich. I am working for a SOC company formerly known as Fujitsu Semiconductor,
nowadays it is called "SOCIONEXT", holy shit, who had chosen this name for a company
addressing a "high tech" business ... anyways, we are designing chips for the automotive
companies (especially in southern Germany), which deal mainly with displays in cars.
I have also a background with SOCs designed for the consumer (TV) business with my former
company.
Privatly I am a video and audio maniac and started this around 1996 with a DVD drive build in
a PC connected to a Loewe TV which already had a VGA input these days ... and somehow
this was the start of that all.
In 2001 I did purchase a projector (Norwegian company ASK, M3) and build up my first "home cinema"
with already a screen size of 240cm by 180cm. The projector of cause was a business
projector only (as many these days) and of cause had some shortcomings which I was not
aware of before the purchase, in Germany we say I payed "Lehrgeld". So in fact this was
a 4:3 business projector which only worked with 60Hz refresh rate. This would have been
worked properly in the states but not in Germany. I mainly bought DVDs Region Code 2 which
all contain 25p/50i material which was created with the PAL Speed up mastering from the
original 24p ... the movies have been 4% shorter and the original audio was pitched high :-)
Side note: The original 24p sources are converted to 60p for the American broadcasting.
This done with a very simple 3:2 pulldown. This results in less than perfect content, but
to my knowledge that is state of the art for US broadcasting. Compared to the PAL speedup
the video quality lacks if there are panning shots, they will judder. The same was done
for Region Code 1 DVDs, which were sold in north american countries.
Of cause as a newbie I discovered all this with the time and I suffered a lot, because watching
DVD was pain in the ass more or less with that tearing because of 50Hz to 60Hz hard conversion.
Rarely I had some Region Code 1 DVDs - this was tightly better ... but not perfect.
In 2004 I got rid of this projector and went for a "HD ready" projector (which was affordable
these days) which was capable to play 48Hz, 50Hz and 60Hz sources. It was the Optoma H81 with
a 16:9 resolution of 1280x720. I connected it mainly to a PC because I preferred the digital
connection rather than analog ... even I had a progressive analog DVD Player, which of cause
had benefits in convenience. This was always the downside for having a PC as a player.
You never will have the convenience with a PC, even with some advanced scripting (eventghost)
on the machine, I tried a lot at the end you need a least a mouse ...
I was happy with that equipment for a long time and I was also one of the first German HD PayTV
customer. I had a contract starting 2005. Of cause as well I was seeking for other
HD material as well. From time to time one got some peaces of HD material not only from
Europe but also from US and I got in contact with 24p HD. As well the XBOX 360 and the HD-DVD
came up, which I also purchased - it seems that I am an early adopter - OK, this was
not format which had success at the end .. :-). This HD-DVDs could only be watched correctly
in respect to frame rate (ripping HD-DVD was pain in the ... goddamn BR is so much easier to rip)
when playing them with the PC, setting the refresh rate to 48Hz. The XBOX was fixed to 60Hz.
In 2009 it was time for new hardware after moving with my wife to a new flat ... the WAV
became important. So I changed things and brought a first flat TV - up to this my TV
was still a tube - and as well a bought a AVR 3812 Denon amplifier, which had two HDMI
outputs - one for the TV and the other for the projector. And a first bluray player came into the
house. I tested many but than I chose the DUNE HD Prime 3.0 which has a drive and was as
well capable of being a good network player on top. Especially the player can handle
BR ISO. This "innovation" brought up, that the Optoma H81 projector was OK with the PC
to play 24p but not with the new AV switch and the BR player ... which ended up in
purchasing a Full HD projector (Epson TW4400). This time I had still a PC connected to
it as well as a BR/HD player but I used it only fewer and fewer ...
Today I have still nearly this setup, but the PC as a player is not used any more. I have a NAS
which has stored plenty of BR ISOs and as well a lot of recorded TV stuff. The NAS
has a Plex Server setup since 2014 ... as well I got some new hardware, a Enigma2 clone
SAT receiver (linux based, custom ROM setup, works perfect as a streaming server for iPads
for live and recorded TV, an lately the Amazon Fire TV Box (AFTV) ...
... and with that the dilemma starts ...
Rational
In late 2014 I was searching for the perfect Plex Client hardware. The PC was my first try,
just as a basic evaluation of my concept. That works quite OK, most important with
the TV I could setup the refresh rate exactly as needed *but not automatically* ...
which is possible in theory but I don't wanted the PC again.
I discovered that there was some open source development for the DUNE players ongoing
(https://github.com/newloran2/emplexer) and I am quite happy with it. I is not best
at performance and the graphical views are lacking some elegance but it can:
1) play the recorded TV movies and TV shows (mainly 50i) without re-encoding
2) play the ISOs and switches automatically the out frequency to 24Hz
3) play some 24p mkv or m2ts files and switches automatically the out frequency to 24Hz
(without re-encoding is important for me, because I don't like the re-encoding when
not needed and as well the NAS can't handle it, at least for the 1080i@50Hz sources.
I have a MAC MINI as well as a Plex Server, which I use than with an Ipad, which
needs the re-encoding somehow ...).
So basically I am happy with the DUNE player. But AFTV came into the house because
I thought it could do the following:
a) of cause play the content of AMAZON prime video
b) Netflix
c) Plex client
d) XBMC/Kodi player
e) MLB at bat app
I was aware before that 24p is a problem with that box, I hoped that there will come
updates in the future or that the rooted device can handle it ... but this was my
fail ...
Fail
With the upcoming streaming services there came quite few new boxes to market.
As well with the latest streaming services like Amazon Prime Video or Netflix 4K was
hyped a lot. First TV sets which are somehow 4K capable exist as well ... and as in the
older times (-> "HD ready") a 4K TV set from the very first times is junk already. To be
honest I did not dig into the technical specs of modern 4K TV sets, lets hope that they
are no compromise between shipping date and shortcomings inside. But I dare to say
that 4K today is only excellent in respect to resolution but does not carefully
consider frame rates ... I think this will change with the definition of a new standard
when 4K is delivered as Bluray or something comparable. 4K from the streaming services
will include some wilderness as already true for HD contents today
So I don't really need 4K (today) because:
I don't have the equipment :-)
4K is not ready in respect to standard
4K is rare, only streaming services announce it
4K needs bandwidth
streaming services can not handle HD ... so why should it become better with 4K
Streaming Client Boxes available
AFTV / Amazon Prime Video
My opinion on AFTV
+ very fast and intuitive interface
+ remote is simple and offers voice recognition which even works for Germany
+ easy to install
+ MLB at bat app works fine for me
~ open to install third party apps
- can play Amazon prime video (core functionality), but with some problems
- can play Netflix, but with some problems
- Plex client is rather annoying the working good
- XBMC/Kodi can be side loaded, 24p support is missing
-- Android version does not support auto frame rate switching between 50 and 60hz
-- Android version does not support 24p in general
Unfortunately I can not show a link from the .com Amazon help forum which cares about the
same issue. But you can find it in other forums (avsforum eg.)
The sum up for the German thread is:
There are several issues
a) judder for these and that content depending on 50Hz or 60Hz
b) lacking support for 24p when using e.g. XBMC or KODI
c) some TV set can obviously - at least up to some readers opinion - compensate this
d) other TV sets cannot ... or the readers are more picky about a smooth playback
Streaming
(one has carefully to distinguish what is the reason for that even the available down bandwidth
can be reason for something like this)
Lets assume one has a good down bandwidth - in my case 50Mbit/s down:
Here are some examples what can happen:
Breaking Bad Original version 1080HD runs OK but only if the device is switched to 60Hz manually
Breaking Bad German Translation 1080HD runs OK but only if the device is switched to 50Hz manually
Automatic switching does not happen. I never had a content up to now which forces the
device to change the output frame rate. I guess that is a major bug in the system. Or the
content does not flag that correctly. But is makes sense. Breaking bad was intentionally
produced for the US Broadcaster, so 60Hz was chosen as the frame rates are in US. The German
translation was produced for 50 Hz (Sky did broadcast it in Germany) as the frame rates here are.
Bad Example:
Aerial America, season 1, 1. California
Neither with 60 Hz nor with 50 Hz this will run - at least on my TV screen or my projector -
smoothly. There are heavy panning shots vertically as well as horizontally and the ends up
in a lot off stuttering. I cannot watch these with the Amazon Fire TV.
My guess is (I cannot proof this, since there is no transparent view to the sources): This
content is derived from a bluray and it contains 24p frames, this causes the heavy stutter.
Good Example:
BBC Documentation Africa: Runs perfect with 50 Hz. My guess is, that this is a production for
the British TV broadcaster so it works well.
Summary
1) some contents will never play smooth on fire TV
2) some cinema movie content will play smooth in 50Hz if produced for Europe broadcast
3) some cinema movie will slightly stutter (as in the history for the US, 3:2 pullup) if produced
for US broadcast in 60Hz
I wonder whether the situation in US is different? Are the US customer used to it? Do they
accept it? All movies are produce in 24p and they should be broad casted in such a manner at
least with 48Hz. But that seems to be impossible.
For Bluray the situation is better now, the are all 24p.
For streaming we have chaos obviously.
Short remark to the people which say with some magic image processing they have perfect results:
Impossible! If there is any 24p content it is unavoidable to have some judder and this is because
50/24 or 60/24 is not even. Of cause modern TV sets can handle 120Hz or 240Hz which is 5*24p or
10*24p but the AFTV box does break this. You will have judder. Some algorithm may make it
better but not perfect. At least I haven't seen such an algorithm.
As for 4k: Not seen up to now, but I think there will be issues in the same manner.
Netflix
Very same experience here, but I stopped my subscription after a month or so ... did only
watch Orange is the new black
Plex
Plex App on the AFTV does work to some extent but is has some disadvantages:
- 24p no
- re-encoding is not avoidable since some video audio constellation requires this. 5.1 audio
does not play
- direct play setup does not work properly (forced)
- external player setup does work (with out re-encoding) but it is unhandy, because there
is an application swap, returning to plex is not convenient.
- my recommendation: Use the Plex Plugin in KODI instead, setup direct play, no more problem with
audio. 24p is still not possible
XBMC/Kodi
If you are a hacker and if you accept to fail initially but want to solve your problems, this
is right for you. The application of cause opens you a lot of possibilities, which are
quite handy and as I described I use KODI as an Plex Player. I should say that because of the
initial failing I changed to SPMC which is a fork to KODI and best suited for AFTV. 24p is still
not supported. KODI on other platforms can handle it e.g. rasberrypie.
MLB at bat App
Works good, with the latest update there is lost some functionality which was quite nice
for watching a game re-live the other day. This was the boxscore navigation where you can
navigate easily the innings. But anyway ... currently I am not a subscriber. I wait for the
better SF Giant times :-)
ATV / itunes
I don't have it. But I think basically what I saw from googling it: 24p nope! It can
handle 50/60Hz frame switch automatically and it prevents the customer from the real
24 problems with the itunes store, which is more or less the only (legal) way to get
movie content onto the box. I assume that there is some mirco judder present.
For the 2015 WWDC there are some indications that there will be an update on ATV. I am
curios what the will introduce ... most likely the HBO integration I think.
If I can have some wishes (I am so naive ):
- open it up a little bit, so that e.g. third party like KODI can be installed on
- support 24p
- support automatic frame rate switching between 24p/50p/60p
- perfect Plex App
Other / Short comments without knowing them in detail
Nexus player
Introduce newly in Germany ... first reviews have a lot of criticism on lacking apps support.
Interesting part is the Android Lollipop OS, which should enable automatic frame switching by
the OS. Maybe this is a myth and has to be busted, I did not read anything accordingly.
chromecast
Very basic, more for people which do not expect to much and which happy to see anything
ignoring the quality.
android boxes (Minix)
The benefit are the custom ROMs for this machines. The seem to support 24p. And as well
auto frame rate switching at least for specific hardware, the know obviously the hardware
register to changes (which is by the way the bigger problem with SOC in FireTV, Qualcomm
Snapdragon 600, even if rooted no body discovered how to change the framerate).
Netflix or Amazon fire TV seems to be an issue.
Boxee box
Older one ... 24p seems to be possible
Roku
Famous in US. May be not suited for the European market.
rasberrypie(2)
This is more or less a PC which runs Linux. There are also many custom ROMs, like OpenElec
which give the device some sexiness. But you must be aware that you invest some time up
to the point it will run perfect. Remote Control and especially switching on and off with
the remote is a topic ... there are solutions out there, but many people (to my knowledge)
become desperate on this.
